DET1 = Detective #1

DET2 = Detective #2

SUS = Suspect

DET2: ...what I'm trying to do is find out who hit her.

SUS: Hmn, hmn.

DET2: Okay? And I'm not...

SUS: Yes.

DET2: ...saying, now listen, I'm not saying that it was just an intentionally thing, um cause accidents happen and I -- There's no doubt in my mind that this is not...

SUS: If you're accusing me in any manner, way, shape, or form, then I must have Alzheimer's.

DET2: Okay. I don't know. Do you?

SUS: No, not that I know of. No.

DET2: Okay. I'm not saying that anybody went out and intentionally hit her.

SUS: Okay

DET2: I don't think that's what happened, but I think that, um, there was obviously an accident and she did get hit.

SUS: Obviously, yes.

DET2: And there was a lot-- it was pretty traumtaic.

SUS: Hmn, hmn. It's not something that I would forget if I was involved with it, um.

DET2: Right. So how can you think that-- I mean what do you think of that? Somebody hits her with a car and leaves.

SUS: I'm shocked that-- that's you don't. I've got a graveyard behind the house with seven cats in it--

DET2: Hmn, hmn.

SUS: --and not one person has ever stopped and said I'm sorry I hit your cat, you know. Granted it's only a cat, but it's-- How do I feel about it? What do you have to go on? Find the motherfucker--

DET2: Hmn, hmn.

SUS: --or I will.

[LATER IN THE QUESTIONING]

DET1: [Your] van did hit her last night. Okay? We have evidence, we have proof of that. Now hear me out, Raymond, hear me out--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: --just hear me out.

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: Let me finish, Raymond, let me finish. I feel like I know you, okay? I've dealt with you before. If this is an accident, we don't need the State Police to be here, okay? The State Police don't investigate that. What I'm--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: Listen to me, Raymound, listen to me. I know you don't remember. it's very painful. I know that you loved her. What you've got to understand is if you did this intentionally, I have to handle this in an entirely different way.

SUS: I didn't know.

DET1: Do you understand what I'm saying?

SUS: I understand--

DET1: Now an accident is an accident, but by you sitting there and telling me "I don't know what you're talking about," I know that's not true, okay.

SUS: No, sir, I--

DET1: You may be--hey, listen--you may be blocking it up, okay? This may have pained you beyond all belief because I know you love her, but you have to tell me what happened so that I can chalk this up as an accident, if that's what it was.

SUS: I've told you--

DET1: No, you haven't Raymond. You're holding back on me, I know you are.

SUS: Then like I said I don't remember anything.

DET1: No, listen to me Raymond. Tell me what happened.Give it to me straight.

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: If this is an accident we can rule it as such, okay, but if you're gonna play with me and look like you're hiding something, you have no idea how much evidence I have. Ray, you can hear me?

SUS: I know what I don't remember.

DET2: Raymond, Raymond, listen to me. You know what we pulled off that bumper? Some hair, okay. Some hair came off that bumper, all right? Right now that hair--

DET1: Did you black out now at all during that night?

DET2: ---right now.

DET1: Do you remember-- that's what I was getting at with the drinking. Do you think you had too much to drink last night and maybe you were blacking out?

SUS: I don't think I had that much.

[LATER IN THE QUESTIONING]

DET1: I don't want the wrong guy. What happened? What happened, Raymond?

SUS: I'm trying to give you everything that I can.

DET1: Okay

SUS: I said it's just a little flash-- I remember a thud.

DET1: Was she facing you and flagging you? Show me how-- show me how she was flagging, I mean, what was she doing?

SUS: She had her hands up there--

DET1: Let me see. I want-- I want to see what she was doing.

SUS: You know, to stop.

DET1: Facing you? How was her body turned?

SUS: I get her facing me, the picture I have.

DET1: Okay.

DET2: Did she turn around at the last minute? Now tell me this, I see the brake marks, probably going a little too fast--

SUS: The speed limit's 50 through there.

DET2: Okay, so as you pull over, she's gonna turn away. 'Cause, let me tell you something-- look at me. She's got broken back here. All back here is broken. I know you remember seeing that. I know you do.

DET1: Did she turn her back to you, Raymond?

SUS: No.

DET1: What's the last thing you saw?

SUS: It isn't so much see, like I said, hear, feel, sense.

DET2: Describe it to me.

SUS: No, but not, no.

DET2: Okay. I don't know, but I want to know. I want to know what Raymond has to say here.

DET1: What's the last thing you saw last night, Raymond? You're a grown man, you know what you did last night. What's the last thing you saw? Was she flagging you down?

SUS: Yes.

DET1: Okay. How-- I know I've asked you this before, but how was she flagging you down? It's very important that I know this.

SUS: She had to have spun out of the way when I came toward her.

DET1: Okay. Now tell me-- I know it's obvious to you, but why were you going towards her?

SUS: To pull over for her.

DET1: Okay. Were you stepping on the brake?

SUS: Yes.

DET1: About how fast were you going at this point?

SUS: I'm not sure. I didn't-- I wasn't looking at the speedometer at that--

DET2: When you--

SUS: On that strip I'm usually in forty-five, fifty.

DET1: Okay. Did you feel like you had control of the van?

SUS: Yes.

DET1: It wasn't getting away from you?

DET2: Did it feel like you were coming in a little too hot and you tried to pull over-- to talk to her?

SUS: Oh, God, yes--

DET2: [Inaudible] Brakes didn't quite work as good as you thought?

SUS: Yes.

DET2: And then she gets hit on the passenger's side of that van.

SUS: Oh, God.

DET1: That's all right, bud.

DET2: Right?

DET1: That's all right. Hang in there. So that's what happened, Raymond?

DET2: [inaudible]

SUS: Yes.

DET1: Okay.

DET2: And she gets knocked right out of her shoes.

SUS: Oh, God.

DET2: Listen to me. She gets knocked right out of her shoes.

DET1: Is it coming back to you now?

SUS: Parts of it are.

[LATER IN THE QUESTIONING]

DET1: Do you remember hitting the brakes?

SUS: If I wanted to kill someone, I would not use a vehicle to do it.

DET1: Okay.

DET2: Do you remember hitting the brakes, though, and pushing--

SUS: Yes I do.

DET2: --it all the way down to the floor and them just not responding the way they should.

SUS: I remember slamming on the brakes, yes.

DET1: Okay, and then you remember the thud.

SUS: Yes.

DET1: Okay. Um, you know that you hit her.

SUS: I must have known at the time, but just--

DET1: Just what?

SUS: Shut it off.

DET1: Okay. That's a very human response. Um, like I told you, as State Police detectives, we need to decide if this was an intentional act or not.

SUS: No, no.

DET1: And I'm tell-- I have people who are telling me that you intentionally hit this girl. That you drove at her and hit her.

SUS: No.

DET1: I need you to help me discount that.

SUS: No.

DET1: Help me discount that. Tell me about the accident. Tell me what you saw. When did you lose sight of her? Um, tell me at which point you knew that you've been in an accident. Tell it to me.

SUS: Tell you something that--

DET1: Where did it go wrong? Was it in the-- in the turn to the breakdown lane? Is that where you lost sight of her?

SUS: Yes.

DET1: Okay, and then what happened?

SUS: Then it was just a quick sight.

DET1: Yeah.

DET2: Did you feel the vehicle? Did you feel it? Think about it.

SUS: A vehicle that size. No.

DET2: She's a little girl.

SUS: I know. I didn't feel-- it was like--like a pothole and-- not--

DET1: It felt like you hit a pothole?

SUS: That's what I'm saying, the--the thud, it--it isn't a big jar, you know, getting--

DET1: Yup.

SUS: --when you get slammed by another car or something.

DET1: I realize that.

SUS: [inaudible] feel anything like that.

DET1: I realize that. It seems obvious to me that you knew you hit her, okay? I'm not questioning why you drove away, because I think you were afraid. I am questioning why you were holding back a little bit on us so for, well I'm sure if I hit her.

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: I think you know that you hit her, but I think that you knew it was an accident and you didn't know what to do. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you know you hit her?

SUS: I do now, yes.

DET1: You knew then too, Raymond. You knew that you hit her, you just didn't know what to do, and I'll give you that, but by you holding back on me-- You're not a dumb man, you know what happened. Just tell me what happened.

DET2: Listen to me

SUS: I didn't do it on purpose.

DET1: I know you didn't.

DET2: We know that.

DET1: We know that, but hiding behind the "I'm not sure" and "I don't remember," it doesn't make you look like that. It makes you look worse. You know what happened, when it happened.

SUS: I'm being honest. Straightforward and honest with you.

DET1: Okay. Well go ahead and tell me--tell me what happened, straightforward and honest.

SUS: Just went--

DET1: Hmn?

SUS: I just went on.

DET1: What do you mean, it just went on?

SUS: I just went on.

DET1: You just left.

SUS: Hmn, hmn.

DET1: Can you tell me why you left?

SUS: Definitely? No, I can't tell you definitely--I--I cannot give you an answer like, I left because--

DET2: All right. I want to back--back up to where she got hit, okay? Look at me. I need to hear it. Because like I said, there's some people out there--

SUS: Okay, and I told you several times, um, this is getting--

DET1: This is--Raymond, honestly--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: --we're trying to get this out. We just want to get this out.

SUS: [inaudible]

DET1: It hasn't fully come out yet.

DET2: Right.

DET1: You haven't given it everything you have yet. You're still holding some things back. Now whether or not it's because it's too painful, or--or if it's because you have something to hide, I don't know.

SUS: I don't have anything to hide.

DET1: I've come in here with the attitude that this guy's pretty squared away.

SUS: I don't have anything to hide. If I had something to hide, I would have run.

DET1: He's a pretty honest guy.

SUS: I would have run if I had something to hide.

DET1: Well, you're not exactly being forthcoming right now.

SUS: I'm trying.

DET1: Okay, I want you to try harder.

SUS: You're crowding, jeez.

DET1: No, I want you to try a little harder, okay? I want to get out of your hair. I'd like to chalk this up as it deserves to be chalked up, but I can't do that with a lot of "I don't knows" and "I can't remember." All right? If you would please take me through the accident, be as clear as you can, tell me when you broke, when the last thing you saw, what you heard, and what you did afterwards, we'll document that and we--we'll be done with it.

SUS: Yes, and that'll be used against me in court.

DET1: It was an accident, wasn't it?

SUS: Yes.

DET1: Okay. Well, if it truly was an accident, I don't see how that's gonna happen.

DET2: Raymond, I got one--I got to tell you something. Look at me. Do you know what we do? Me and [DET1]? We're not just detectives, okay. And this might shed some light while we're in here. We're homicide detectives.

SUS: Hmn, hmn.

DET2: Homicide detectives.

SUS. Hmn, hmn. I understand.

DET2: Okay, we don't get called to accidents and things like that. We get called to murders.

SUS: I understand that.

DET2: So, by me talking to you, and I need to hear it, "yeah, it was an accident." I need to know that.

SUS: I understand that.

DET1: We want nothing better than to get out of your hair if you are not a murderer.

SUS: I'm not a murderer.

DET2: Then I need to hear exactly.

SUS: I said, if I wanted to murder someone, I had more opportunity than you could ever possibly imagine (inaudible).

DET2: Right. That would be stupid to use a truck.

SUS: Of course--

DET2: Of course it would be.

SUS: --with a vehicle, what the fuck.

DET2: Absolutely. That would be the dumbest thing to do in the world. Because--just because--

SUS: There's evidence [inaudible] in the world to try to get rid of.

DET2: Right. Just like when--

DET1: [inaudible]

DET2: --there's hair, there's all kinds of stuff.

DET1: We're not bullshitting you. That thing's loaded.

DET2: There's all kinds of shit on that van. So--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET2: Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you here?

SUS: Yes, I think honestly at this point I think I better play it safe and go with a lawyer. 'Cause I don't-- I need some type of advice.

[THE FOLLOWING DAY, IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO SUSPECT'S FIRST MEETING WITH HIS LAWYER]

DET2: Okay, if you decide to answer questions now, with or without a lawyer present, you have the right to stop answering at any time or to stop answering at any until you can talk to a lawyer. Do you understand that?

SUS: Yes.

DET2: Okay. Now, having all those rights which I explained to you in mind, do you wish to answer questions at this time?

SUS: Yes.

DET2: Okay. Now, what does this mean to you, what I just read to you?

SUS: It means that I'm going to tell you what I know is what happened.

DET2: Okay. Well--

SUS: --and I'm going to say it freely.

DET2: Okay. And I'm not coercing you or scaring you or--

SUS: No.

DET2: --or anything like that.

SUS: You did when you tried to question me last time--

[LATER IN THE QUESTIONING]

DET2: All right, so you guys have the fight, she leaves-- I just want...

SUS: Hmn, hmn.

DET2: ...to make sure that I'm getting this right.

SUS: Yes.

DET2: You come out-- throw your shit in the van, and that's-- and how-- how much longer did you leave after she blew out of there?

SUS: It had to have been three or four, five minutes.

DET2: Okay, so shortly after. So you backed out--

SUS: Yeah

DET2: --you must have been pissed, 'cause I know that I get pissed off at women, they can fuckin' push my buttons.

SUS: [inaudible] I-- I guess I would--

DET2: Well, I'm-- I know, but listen to me--

SUS: I'm a very cautious driver.

DET2: I'm sure you are, but I'm a man and so are you--

SUS: Yes.

DET2: --and fuckin' women--

SUS: I wasn't that pissed.

DET2: --off can piss you off and they piss me--

SUS: No.

DET2: --well, I don't know. I don't know what to say about that then, 'cause I know how they make me feel--

SUS: Okay, that's fine.

DET2: --and I get fuckin' mad. So you must-- I know you're a little bit pissed 'cause you've already told me you were mad. I'm just trying to find out exactly why you might have done that. Was it a little bit of, there's a car coming up my ass and that fuckin' bitch--

SUS: No.

DET2: --but I'm not gonna hit her, but she's pissin' me off.

SUS: The speed limit on that road is 50 miles an hour. The cars traveling on that road is 65 miles an hour.

DET2: Right.

SUS: Like I said, I'm in a vehicle that doesn't have quick acceleration.

DET2: Okay.

SUS: Okay?

DET2: Let's get--

SUS: So I get-- I back into the breakdown lane--

DET2: Right.

SUS: --start accelerating forward, because this car is gaining on me now--

DET2: Right

SUS: No, I'm not trying to-- I'm not playing speed racer or anything else like that I--

DET2: Right. How fast do you think you were going?

SUS: I don't know. I had to have been-- I had to have been building up to a blending speed. Anywhere from 35 to 45, somewhere in that area, between those--

DET2: But you told me you were doing fifty-something the other day.

SUS: Yeah, that's when I finally pull intot he highway.

DET2: all right.

SUS: Because there's the highway speed limit. That's when I merge onto the main road.

DET2: Okay. All right.

SUS: That's the story. That's--

DET2: So-- so, R.B.'s [convenience store] was closed?

SUS: From point A to point B. R.B.'s was down, yes.

DET2: All right.

SUS: And I figured she had-- must have gotten a ride. She must have stuck her thumb out and got a ride.

DET2: All right.

SUS: I honestly had no--

DET2: Because listen to me, we're going to this arraignment and it-- it--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET2: Listen. For me to hear the whole truth--

SUS: You've heard the whole truth--

DET2: --now is the time to do it, because listen--

SUS: I have, sir.

DET2: --after you--after this I can't ever talk to you again--

SUS: I know.

DET2: --and that's going to be it--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET2: --and then it's gonna be up to what my bosses tell me to do, and I want to say, hey, you're an all right dude, but I don't want any-- I don't want there to be any miscommunication between us. I don't want you to go--

SUS: There's not.

DET2: --fuck, I wish I had told that guy that.

SUS: No, there [inaudible]

DET2: And listen, it's really important for me to know this stuff.

SUS: I told you everything.

DET2: All right.

SUS: Everything that I possibly can. I've been honest with you, okay? That's why--

DET2: I need to know--

SUS: Every-- everybody says I'm supposed to talk to a lawyer and everything else, but how can honesty hurt me?

DET2: Honesty can't. Honesty is the best thing you can do. That's all I'm asking--

SUS: That's-- that's why I'm talking to you.

DET2: That's all I want to know, and you're telling me you're remembering stuff and that's really good, okay, but I need to know just how angry you were, 'cause that's very important for you because, you know, hey, people don't think right sometimes--

SUS: [inaudible]

DET2: Listen to me. People don't think right sometimes 'cause they're mad.

SUS: Sir--

DET2: You know what I'm saying?

SUS: Okay. I couldn't have been all that angry because like I said, when I got to work I sat down, I played with the internet.

DET2: Right, and you cooled off.

SUS: I didn't-- I didn't do about anything. That-- that's not like me. I'm a very logical person.

DET2: Right.

SUS: Okay?

DET2: But I know what she can do to people.

SUS: [inaudible] I know, and as the other officer pointed out, she's tried to do that me.

DET2: At-- yes, she has.

SUS: He's come to my door and I have been very calm and rational.

DET2: Right. She's tried to fuck you over before.

SUS: It takes a lot to get me angry, and I was not that angry.

DET2: Okay.

SUS: I was not. I had a place to go, I had a scapegoat. I was going to go to work. I was gonna have a chance to-- I was actually looking forward to it.

DET2: Right.

SUS: Okay? I was not that angry.

DET2: All right. Did you have any idea that--

SUS: When-- when we-- when we-- when the fight started, I knew then as soon as she got to that point where she gets-- she goes beyond control, as soon as she was at that point where nothing was gonna stop--

DET2: Hmn, hmn.

SUS: --her bitching, that's when I said, I'm out of here.

DET2: Right. That's the right thing to do.

SUS: And-- and I was-- I was calm, cool and collected.

DET2: All right. Do you remember seeing her at all in the road?

SUS: No, I don't.

DET2: 'Cause that's kind of important. I need to know 'cause if you--

SUS: I don't

DET2: --did then you should tell me.

SUS: I don't. I honestly--

DET2: 'Cause--

SUS: --I don't.

DET2: In like ten minutes I can't ever talk to you again.

SUS: I realize that.

DET2: You're not going to get a chance to tell me what you know.

SUS: I don't remember seeing her at all. I don't. That's why I didn't believe it the next day.

DET2: 'Cause--well, yesterday--let me tell you this, you told me you saw her waving you down.

SUS: You, you.

DET2: You told me you saw her waving--

SUS: I know.

DET2: --on the side of the road. What the hell is that?

SUS: What the hell is that, is that's what you're telling me and--

DET2: No.

SUS: --and I'm, like, going along with it-- ah, you're--

DET2: Now that's a lie.

SUS: --putting pictures in my head--

DET2: That's a lie. I asked you what--

SUS: Now you're starting that again.

DET2: --you saw. No, no, no, I'm not. I asked you what you saw--

SUS: I didn't.

DET2: Okay, what you told me yesterday is completely different from today, so it's got to be a lie.

SUS: I don't recall her waving. That-- like I said, you were talking about, "Did you see her waving at the side of the road?" and I'm trying to put pictures in my head because I didn't see anything, and I'm--

DET2: I didn't say anything about her waving. All I said was, "Did you see her?" and you said, "She was, like, waving, trying to flag me down," and that's not a big deal--

SUS: [inaudible] about pictures.

DET2: --she tells me she's drunk out-- listen, I know she was drunk out in the road--

SUS: I didn't see her.

DET2: --'cause I--I talked to some people.

SUS: I knew that. You've doen the autopsy and everything else like that. I know that. I did not see her.

[LATER IN THE QUESTIONING]

DET2: Now, there's a-- there's a skid mark there, so I know you hit the brakes, and there's people-- everybody that saw this says there's a squeal and a thump. Everybody that was there. All the neighbors.

SUS: [inaudible]

DET2: Squeal and a thump.

SUS: I might have caught a flash, 'cause like I said, I'm paying attention out the driver's side window.

DET2: I mean, you must remember hitting the brakes?

SUS: I might have caught a flash.

DET2: I mean, Jesus--

SUS: Yeah.

DET2: --you hit the brakes.

SUS: Like a flash out of the side of my eye and--

DET2: What was that flash?

SUS: I don't know what that flash was.

DET2: Well, think about it.

SUS: Well, yeah--

DET2: 'Cause there must have been a reason to hit--

SUS: --deep down inside.

DET2: Well, deep down inside--

SUS: Deep down inside I know what that flash was.

DET2: --that's what I want to get at. What was that flash?

SUS: I know what it is now. It had to have been [victim].